Issues of Race

**Dinny** Mon Oct 04, 2010 7:27 pm

I hate people referring to anyone as "black", "white", etc. The biggest mistake Americans make is exactly this. Here in Australia, you'd hear people of different skin colors referred to simply as people, maybe referred to by their nationality if the situation called for it. But when I was in America, for some reason, everyone made sure to call black people black and white people white, ESPECIALLY media/the news.

I didn't understand it. You guys do realize that half the reason racism exists is precisely because you guys do talk about people of different melanin levels as two distinct and separate groups, right?

And the suggestion of lynching. Issues of Race 456458

PapiChuloLeon Mon Oct 04, 2010 7:39 pm

Dinny wrote:
Ffffhahahaha. Appreciated compliment, you wordsmith you. In any case, he does that to everyone. It's just like, you know, a thing he does. I'm divided on it. On one side of the coin, his possessiveness/defensiveness is endearing, on the other, I enjoy being complimented (as most people do) and I don't like the idea that when people say good things about me, they'd be scolded, but if they insult my appearance, he just lets them go? I guess I can understand that, because I have no idea what you're supposed to say in that situation.

He just has a good sense of humor.

MKing Mon Oct 04, 2010 11:25 pm

Dinny wrote:
MKing wrote:Because I think your boyfriend is crazy, I refuse to compliment you anymore

Such a shame, I was really looking for to complimenting you on having a great pair of NICE, BIG, ROUND.................EYES.

Besides, last thing I need in my life is some crazy white boy trying to lynch me.

Ffffhahahaha. Appreciated compliment, you wordsmith you. In any case, he does that to everyone. It's just like, you know, a thing he does. I'm divided on it. On one side of the coin, his possessiveness/defensiveness is endearing, on the other, I enjoy being complimented (as most people do) and I don't like the idea that when people say good things about me, they'd be scolded, but if they insult my appearance, he just lets them go? I guess I can understand that, because I have no idea what you're supposed to say in that situation.

I'm just glad he's not insane enough to, for example, not let me hang out with my male friends (since the vast majority of them are male) and stuff. A friend of mine has a girlfriend who hasn't let him see his female friends for almost two years now, and when she has agreed to it, she's always freaked out and called him to come over to her place immediately and stuff... So now he's totally alienated from all of his friends. I don't get why he doesn't realize this and leave her.

Edit: Oh but, last sentence was kind of unnecessary? I hate people referring to anyone as "black", "white", etc. The biggest mistake Americans make is exactly this. Here in Australia, you'd hear people of different skin colors referred to simply as people, maybe referred to by their nationality if the situation called for it. But when I was in America, for some reason, everyone made sure to call black people black and white people white, ESPECIALLY media/the news.

I didn't understand it. You guys do realize that half the reason racism exists is precisely because you guys do talk about people of different melanin levels as two distinct and separate groups, right?

And the suggestion of lynching.

I hate to break it to you, kid, but that's America for you. Where I come from, referring to someone by Nationality is very very rare. You just won't hear to many people saying African American, Asian American, etc...and if so, you would notice that it sounds force coming out of their mouth (like a child swearing for the first time). To be honest, even if people would start referring to people as just "People", I don't think racism would die off, not at all. You know how you have people who say the first thing they notice about someone are their eyes, smile, blah, blah, blah, well you have others who notice people skin color, and only their skin color, that's how society is....racism is like violence and Aids, it can't be cured, and not to sound negative, but saying shit like that doesn't want to be heard, but it NEEDS to be said. Unfortunately, it's not only in America, there are a few countries in Africa that are the same way, hell, they even have a high rate for genocide war, and mind you, this is about darker clans killing off lighter clans and vice verse, so yes, it's not only American people that has that problem (racism), it just not as vocal in other places like it is here, that's all.

Oh! and another thing, last thing I want to do is make ARM (or any other person on here) feel uncomfortable, I hope he knows that I was only joking, and I don't really think he will lynch me by any means (I hope)

PapiChuloLeon Mon Oct 04, 2010 11:30 pm

MKing wrote:
Dinny wrote:
MKing wrote:Because I think your boyfriend is crazy, I refuse to compliment you anymore

Such a shame, I was really looking for to complimenting you on having a great pair of NICE, BIG, ROUND.................EYES.

Besides, last thing I need in my life is some crazy white boy trying to lynch me.

Ffffhahahaha. Appreciated compliment, you wordsmith you. In any case, he does that to everyone. It's just like, you know, a thing he does. I'm divided on it. On one side of the coin, his possessiveness/defensiveness is endearing, on the other, I enjoy being complimented (as most people do) and I don't like the idea that when people say good things about me, they'd be scolded, but if they insult my appearance, he just lets them go? I guess I can understand that, because I have no idea what you're supposed to say in that situation.

I'm just glad he's not insane enough to, for example, not let me hang out with my male friends (since the vast majority of them are male) and stuff. A friend of mine has a girlfriend who hasn't let him see his female friends for almost two years now, and when she has agreed to it, she's always freaked out and called him to come over to her place immediately and stuff... So now he's totally alienated from all of his friends. I don't get why he doesn't realize this and leave her.

Edit: Oh but, last sentence was kind of unnecessary? I hate people referring to anyone as "black", "white", etc. The biggest mistake Americans make is exactly this. Here in Australia, you'd hear people of different skin colors referred to simply as people, maybe referred to by their nationality if the situation called for it. But when I was in America, for some reason, everyone made sure to call black people black and white people white, ESPECIALLY media/the news.

I didn't understand it. You guys do realize that half the reason racism exists is precisely because you guys do talk about people of different melanin levels as two distinct and separate groups, right?

And the suggestion of lynching.

I hate to break it to you, kid, but that's America for you. Where I come from, referring to someone by Nationality is very very rare. You just won't hear to many people saying African American, Asian American, etc...and if so, you would notice that it sounds force coming out of their mouth (like a child swearing for the first time). To be honest, even if people would start referring to people as just "People", I don't think racism would die off, not at all. You know how you have people who say the first thing they notice about someone are their eyes, smile, blah, blah, blah, well you have others who notice people skin color, and only their skin color, that's how society is....racism is like violence and Aids, it can't be cured, and not to sound negative, but saying shit like that doesn't want to be heard, but it NEEDS to be said. Unfortunately, it's not only in America, there are a few countries in Africa that are the same way, hell, they even have a high rate for genocide war, and mind you, this is about darker clans killing off lighter clans and vice verse, so yes, it's not only American people that has that problem (racism), it just not as vocal in other places like it is here, that's all.

Oh! and another thing, last thing I want to do is make ARM (or any other person on here) feel uncomfortable, I hope he knows that I was only joking, and I don't really think he will lynch me by any means (I hope)

This nigga know wsup.

StarFireSong Tue Oct 05, 2010 3:23 pm

My $.02 on the whole race thing: I just do it to describe what a person looks like, but their race is more an afterthought; not the first thing I say. I don't judge people by their skin color (never have), but in the Deaf community here, we rely on descriptions of what people look like in order to paint a picture within our own minds. It's used to assist in "recognizing" a name if the person doesn't remember it, like this:

Person A: "You remember John Smith?"
Person B: ???
A: You know him! Graduated in 1975 (or another year) at (high school/college name), played (sports, or was in clubs, etc.), had scar over his eye? Very giggly? Used to move hands in a feminine way? (More descriptions here if necessary. THEN it's Black/Asian/Indian/Native American/other race) dude??
B: (Either will recognize him halfway through the description & go "OMG! YES! How's he?" or still be clueless as to who John Smith is.)

Mind you, this is me. There are some Deaf people who toss in skin color in the middle of their descriptions, & others will say it first before moving on to other traits of the person.

I've also noticed that some people will use their race as a source of pride, much like other people do if they have disabilities or other characteristics that set them apart from the mainstream. Gay Pride, Black Pride, Deaf Pride, etc. all come to mind.

lilith wrote:
Argent Fang wrote:And not to forget Starfire, your photo is quite nice. You have a very friendly, approachable appearance.

Dustbug overreacts as he's seen like, two photos. And I agree! I'd vote StarFireSong prettiest smile on the forum.

SFS, you look a lot like a Virgo-Sagittarius-Cancer I once knew.

Lol, thanks guys. Blow Kiss

Argent Fang Tue Oct 05, 2010 9:19 pm

Of course, Star. Very Happy

Racism...while stereotypes can be funny in their own way, I prefer not to judge someone based on something they had no control over. It's a whole different ballgame if said individual goes around acting like a fucking dumbass and overall portraying the negative stereotype and then plays the race card when called on their horseshit. (this doesn't work so well with white people...)

As far as the African American tag goes, I think it's only approriate to use it when referring to people who were actually born in Africa physically - like the Somalian immigrants that live in Maine - as opposed to just being a PC term to refer to dark skinned people. That would be akin to me calling myself a European American even though my bloodline hasn't lived in Europe for at least a few generations.

I care to say nothing else on the matter right now.

**Dinny** Thu Oct 07, 2010 3:07 am

MKing wrote:I hate to break it to you, kid, but that's America for you. Where I come from, referring to someone by Nationality is very very rare. You just won't hear to many people saying African American, Asian American, etc...and if so, you would notice that it sounds force coming out of their mouth (like a child swearing for the first time). To be honest, even if people would start referring to people as just "People", I don't think racism would die off, not at all. You know how you have people who say the first thing they notice about someone are their eyes, smile, blah, blah, blah, well you have others who notice people skin color, and only their skin color, that's how society is....racism is like violence and Aids, it can't be cured, and not to sound negative, but saying shit like that doesn't want to be heard, but it NEEDS to be said. Unfortunately, it's not only in America, there are a few countries in Africa that are the same way, hell, they even have a high rate for genocide war, and mind you, this is about darker clans killing off lighter clans and vice verse, so yes, it's not only American people that has that problem (racism), it just not as vocal in other places like it is here, that's all.

Oh! and another thing, last thing I want to do is make ARM (or any other person on here) feel uncomfortable, I hope he knows that I was only joking, and I don't really think he will lynch me by any means (I hope)

I'm actually really replying to everyone who put their two cents in (yes, I did read all of the related replies), but yeah.

In a way, I think there's a very good reason racism is not very pronounced in Australia, and that is because besides Indigenous Australians/Aboriginals, there is no such thing as an "Australian". Half of our population consists of Asians, the other half is comprised of European immigrants and their kids (me) and descendants of the early Irish, Scottish and English settlers (these are the blond haired blue eyed people you first think of when you hear "Australian", but even they've only been here three or two generations). Australia tends to struggle with its identity and you often hear people talking about that. But this country is barely 200 years old and wasn't considered an important part of the west until less than 100 ago -- America has a far longer history, and a very tarnished one at that.

Interesting that you should bring up the clan wars throughout some of the countries in Africa -- that's really interesting. It is pretty vocal if you ask me, considering from what I know, there's actually propaganda about it.

ARM isn't a lynchy person, he's more a "take you hostage and use you for my experiments" kind of guy. Razz

MKing Thu Oct 07, 2010 8:37 am

Dinny wrote:America has a far longer history, and a very tarnished one at that.

This is true my Sistah. So true Shaking Head

This is a bit off topic (way off topic, actually), but do guys consider Nicole Kidman an Aussie, because of the whole being born North American and all, because over here she is consider an Aussie when really she was born in Hawaii. Just something that I been thinking about.

PapiChuloLeon Thu Oct 07, 2010 4:00 pm

Dinny wrote:America has a far longer history, and a very tarnished one at that.

Says the islander whose piece of land was used to house society's rejects. Neutral

Why reduce the aboriginal population? Neutral

Guest Fri Oct 08, 2010 1:43 pm

Racism will never end in the United States. It is too convenient for the minorities. I am a white male with no disability. I have less rights than almost any other person you can think of. Sad, but true. But, it's alright...I do not mind working for what I have.

If I started a group and called it United Caucasian College Fund or National Association for Advancement of Caucasian People or 100 White Men of New York (or any other major US city) or any type of group whose primary purpose was to enhance the lives of white people, it would get shut down so fast it would make your head spin, yet we have hundreds of groups aimed specifically at minorities. Black people do not want equal rights...they think white people owe them something. Is it fair? No, but life isn't fair.

I am 40 yrs old. I have worked with a large number of non-white people in my life. I have been friends with a number of non-whites in my life. I try to judge people as individuals on their merits, not their skin color. However, I do not like black people as a race, not because of their skin color but because of their mentality that they are superior, that whitey owes them something, etc. I have never owned a slave nor has any living person in the US ever been a slave. Unfortunately, the outspoken few represent an entire race. Take ten black people, spend time with them individually and then spend time with them as a group. You will see an entirely different set of people. You educated people can speak to that better than I can, I'm sure.

I grew up in the SE US. Racism was alive and well. My father was German and did not care for black people. The word "nigger' was used in my house, more as a descriptive word than a racial slur. My father didn't seem to mind working side by side with a black man though. I had an "uncle" (not really related but an old friend of my father's) that was from Ohio. He was a racist by every definition. He once told me (I was young...maybe 8-10) that "no matter what a nigger did in life, whether he was a doctor or a lawyer or whatever, that he'd still be nothing but a nigger." It bothered me then, even as a young boy. People kill me. There's a guy right down the road from me that flies a Confederate flag in his yard. I've thought about stopping and telling him that the war ended...145 years ago!!!

Argent Fang Fri Oct 08, 2010 10:04 pm

Guest wrote:Racism will never end in the United States. It is too convenient for the minorities. I am a white male with no disability. I have less rights than almost any other person you can think of. Sad, but true. But, it's alright...I do not mind working for what I have.

If I started a group and called it United Caucasian College Fund or National Association for Advancement of Caucasian People or 100 White Men of New York (or any other major US city) or any type of group whose primary purpose was to enhance the lives of white people, it would get shut down so fast it would make your head spin, yet we have hundreds of groups aimed specifically at minorities. Black people do not want equal rights...they think white people owe them something. Is it fair? No, but life isn't fair.

I am 40 yrs old. I have worked with a large number of non-white people in my life. I have been friends with a number of non-whites in my life. I try to judge people as individuals on their merits, not their skin color. However, I do not like black people as a race, not because of their skin color but because of their mentality that they are superior, that whitey owes them something, etc. I have never owned a slave nor has any living person in the US ever been a slave. Unfortunately, the outspoken few represent an entire race. Take ten black people, spend time with them individually and then spend time with them as a group. You will see an entirely different set of people. You educated people can speak to that better than I can, I'm sure.

I grew up in the SE US. Racism was alive and well. My father was German and did not care for black people. The word "nigger' was used in my house, more as a descriptive word than a racial slur. My father didn't seem to mind working side by side with a black man though. I had an "uncle" (not really related but an old friend of my father's) that was from Ohio. He was a racist by every definition. He once told me (I was young...maybe 8-10) that "no matter what a nigger did in life, whether he was a doctor or a lawyer or whatever, that he'd still be nothing but a nigger." It bothered me then, even as a young boy. People kill me. There's a guy right down the road from me that flies a Confederate flag in his yard. I've thought about stopping and telling him that the war ended...145 years ago!!!

I've only lived in the Bible Belt for a little over a year and the division between minorities and white people is highly apparent; far more than it was up north. I've been saying for years how much I despise the double standards in this country, but you're absolutely right, many black people think that they're entitled to handouts and special treatment just because they happen to be born that way.

I find it funny that I can't join the NAACP, yet technically speaking, white is all colors at their maximum potency... Razz

MKing Sat Oct 09, 2010 12:34 am

@"Guest": I find it funny you claim that if you wanted to start a United Caucasian College Fund that it would be shut down, and blah blah blah. Well, my question for you is this, have you ever tried to start any kind of white related organization? If not, than how the hell do you know that it would be shut down, I mean, you acted as if the NAACP didn't go through a rough patch trying to maintain there organization. It wasn't always peachy and cream for them either, I am pretty sure there were many people trying to stop that organization from the start, because we all know that racism is a one sided thing Rolling Eyes

. Part of the reason why NAACP was so popular was because A) Blacks decided to get behind it, no matter what kind of hell they would be put through, and B) many Whites also decided to support the group, as well. Now the reason why I think the United Caucasian College Fund wouldn't be successful/never take off, is because there are too many Whites today that would NEVER take part in something that could possibly make them come off as a racist, and to be honest that is not our fault that you can't get the support of your own race. Now, I'll admit that the down side of our people (blacks) is how we can come off a bit racist (more so than any other race) but most of that comes from the fact that other races never seem to be bothered by it, or never seem to correct the issue when giving the opportunity. How is a child suppose to know NOT to touch a hot stove, if no one ever tell them its hot?

Honestly, people can be sooooo transparent when it comes to this kind of topic, and that's only because no one wants to put themselves in other people shoes. This is why the human race is beyond selfish.

Oh, and as for the entitlement thing, I am aware that many Blacks do behave that of way, but you would have to be a damn fool if you think that only Blacks behave in that manner. Couldn't that statement about handouts and entitlement also apply to a child that's born into a wealthy family? Shaking Head

Seriously get with the program.

StarFireSong Sat Oct 09, 2010 2:50 am

Eesh. I was afraid something like this would happen. silent

MKing, I can't speak for Dustbug/Guest, but I think the point he was trying to make is that if the "whites" were to create an organization that defended the rights of whites, the rest of the people who aren't white would make such a stink & equate it to the KKK, even if the organization is a nonviolent one.

Guest does have a point though. I happened to watch a talk show a few years earlier (I think "Tyra") & she was discussing racism within the black community. There was one guy who insisted that EVERYTHING in his life was the whites' fault; black people are 100% innocent... You get the idea. When Tyra herself pointed out that he was of mixed heritage & that it was a bit ridiculous to blame the whites for all his issues, he denied having "white" blood in him (even though he himself revealed that fact to her prior to the show!). In the same breath, he admitted to marrying a black woman so that his kids would have "diluted" white blood in them, & he also admitted to hoping that each of his children would marry a black person to continue decreasing the amount of white ancestry in their blood. Shaking Head

There are *some*--I REPEAT, SOME--black people who DO carry a humongous chip on their shoulders for their ancestors' pain during the slavery years. Those people, & the people who lived through & experienced the horrors & inexcusable actions during Jim Crow, would be the most vocal about any establishment limiting entry to white people.

*****

I seem to remember reading several articles over the years stating that some people did try to establish small groups on college campuses, only to have the administration shut them down. Also, I vaguely remember the schools' administrators & public representatives giving a reason that was similar to the above reasoning (that it'd be mistaken for KKK, or to encourage people who believe in white supremacy to join & twist the original purpose into something darker). Don't quote me on this because I don't remember where I've read these articles & I obviously don't have links to any of them, although I do remember reading them somewhere on the internet. At each time, they were placed prominently on the front page of my homepage.

In any case, I think it'd help if EVERYONE removed the organizations that based each other on race. Perhaps then it'd be a start in recognizing people of different coloring as just PEOPLE. EVERYONE, no matter their skin color, has to learn to remove the chips we carry on our shoulders before we can see people's personalities first, & giving consideration to (or better: not even noticing) someone's outward appearance last.

We all have an exaggerated sense of fairness, which is quite understandable given the history of the entire world. America wasn't the first country to enslave a people they considered inferior, so maybe it's time to dismantle each organization out there so we can finally move past the traumatic events of our Civil War (& the Jim Crow laws). The ultimate goal will have to be this one: peace, unity, & harmony.

To make this crystal clear: I am not a racist; never have been. I've always had a lot of friends from different backgrounds, & I enjoyed all of them. My very best friend is black, & so are many of my parents' friends--some of whom I grew up calling Aunt & Uncle; & each person I got to know had/have wonderfully beautiful souls. I find the attitudes & the *gags* "vocabulary" (on both sides) narrow-minded & closed-minded, & absolutely reprehensible & inexcusable. I think racism doesn't belong in society, & it's time we got over it & moved on.

*****

Sorry if this comes across as a bit incoherent. It's WAY past my bedtime, but I wanted to say this first before I crawled into bed. If anyone's confused by this post, drop me a note & I'll try to clarify as best as I can when I wake up, lol. Sleep

PapiChuloLeon Sat Oct 09, 2010 9:46 am

All the trash in this thread started because an islander aussie girl decided to take mking's joke too literally. Neutral

Guest Sat Oct 09, 2010 1:57 pm

MKing wrote:@"Guest": I find it funny you claim that if you wanted to start a United Caucasian College Fund that it would be shut down, and blah blah blah. Well, my question for you is this, have you ever tried to start any kind of white related organization? If not, than how the hell do you know that it would be shut down, I mean, you acted as if the NAACP didn't go through a rough patch trying to maintain there organization. It wasn't always peachy and cream for them either, I am pretty sure there were many people trying to stop that organization from the start, because we all know that racism is a one sided thing . Part of the reason why NAACP was so popular was because A) Blacks decided to get behind it, no matter what kind of hell they would be put through, and B) many Whites also decided to support the group, as well. Now the reason why I think the United Caucasian College Fund wouldn't be successful/never take off, is because there are too many Whites today that would NEVER take part in something that could possibly make them come off as a racist, and to be honest that is not our fault that you can't get the support of your own race. Now, I'll admit that the down side of our people (blacks) is how we can come off a bit racist (more so than any other race) but most of that comes from the fact that other races never seem to be bothered by it, or never seem to correct the issue when giving the opportunity. How is a child suppose to know NOT to touch a hot stove, if no one ever tell them its hot?

Honestly, people can be sooooo transparent when it comes to this kind of topic, and that's only because no one wants to put themselves in other people shoes. This is why the human race is beyond selfish.

Oh, and as for the entitlement thing, I am aware that many Blacks do behave that of way, but you would have to be a damn fool if you think that only Blacks behave in that manner. Couldn't that statement about handouts and entitlement also apply to a child that's born into a wealthy family? Seriously get with the program.

I do not have to jump out of an airplane without a parachute to know that it will not end well. Using the same reasoning, I do not have to attempt to start a racial group to know it will not be well-received. Just to be clear, I'm not talking about some white-supremist group like the KKK or Arien-Nation or anything close to those. I'm talking about a group that wants to help people achieve certain goals in life (college education, low-interest mortgages, mentoring, equal rights, etc) based solely on their race. Not only would it not be accepted by any race, it would be illegal. Yet, we have many of these types of groups thriving in the US with the full support of the government and getting federal funds (my tax dollars). Yes, I have a problem with that.

Am I saying that this country did not need these groups at one time, did not need the Equal Rights Amendment? No, absolutely not. Just like the labor unions of the late 19th & early 20th century, these organizations served a legitimate need...at that time. Now, legislation has passed that makes it illegal to discriminate based on a whole plethora of protected classes (race, religion, age, gender, sexual orientation, etc) I just had a class on Prohibited Harassment a couple months ago. Very Happy

The service provided by these types of groups (bringing the issues to the media attention, if nothing else) is no longer a valid reason for them to exist. I am saying that these groups are racist groups. You can not deny it. If a white man goes to any of these groups and attempts to apply for their services, he will be denied...based on his skin color. Do you disagree with this statement?

Would whites want to be part of a group like the NAACaucasianP? I'd say yes, many would welcome the help after being discriminated against for so long because of ridiculous programs like Affirmative Action. You say " Whites today that would NEVER take part in something that could possibly make them come off as a racist" which I read as, by your own admission, these groups are clearly racist by nature.

Now, even with all the other things you wrote, the one that really kills me is this one: "Now, I'll admit that the down side of our people (blacks) is how we can come off a bit racist (more so than any other race) but most of that comes from the fact that other races never seem to be bothered by it, or never seem to correct the issue when giving the opportunity. How is a child suppose to know NOT to touch a hot stove, if no one ever tell them its hot? " You are basically saying, and correct me if I'm wrong, that it is ok for blacks to be racist because no other races mind, or do not correct you for it? This baffles me. Are you saying that black people, as a race, have no sense of right and wrong? That you have to be told how to act or else it is not your fault if you act badly? I am responsible for my actions, aren't you? I would think that a race that has lived such a dark history based solely on skin color would be the first to admonish this type of behavior, not the last, not be "racist (more so than any other race)"

I have had lengthy discussions with people of different races, mostly blacks, about racism (mostly in America), past, present and future. I have tried to look at it from the black perspective, which I can not. I can empathize and try to understand the history of where we have been, the place where we are now and where we are going...as a people, not separated by race, not separated by borders, not separated by religion, but as a people. I am by no means an expert on this subject (or any other). I have opinions. I say we can not forget the past but it is done...can't change that now. We can only change the future by what we do today, right now. I'll also say I think white people, as a whole, have put themselves in a good place. Of course there are still racists, no argument there. But, I think it's time for the black population to catch up in their way of thinking. Stop feeling entitled, stop using race as a way to get people to feel sorry for you, stop making your skin color an issue. Dr. King preached about equality, not reverse-racism. (yes, I have read and listened to many of Dr. Kings work)

**Dinny** Sat Oct 09, 2010 10:10 pm

PapiChuloLeon wrote:All the trash in this thread started because an islander aussie girl decided to take mking's joke too literally.

More like because ARM said he'd be pissed with me if I didn't respond to Mking.

In the very near future I'm splitting off these off-topic posts into a new thread, if you want to elaborate upon the discussion, continue it here. As a general rule, if you go off-topic, it isn't a huge issue unless it develops into it's own in-depth discussion as it has here. It warrants its own thread. Surprised

**Dinny** Sat Oct 09, 2010 10:25 pm

Guest wrote:Now, even with all the other things you wrote, the one that really kills me is this one: "Now, I'll admit that the down side of our people (blacks) is how we can come off a bit racist (more so than any other race) but most of that comes from the fact that other races never seem to be bothered by it, or never seem to correct the issue when giving the opportunity. How is a child suppose to know NOT to touch a hot stove, if no one ever tell them its hot? " You are basically saying, and correct me if I'm wrong, that it is ok for blacks to be racist because no other races mind, or do not correct you for it? This baffles me. Are you saying that black people, as a race, have no sense of right and wrong? That you have to be told how to act or else it is not your fault if you act badly? I am responsible for my actions, aren't you? I would think that a race that has lived such a dark history based solely on skin color would be the first to admonish this type of behavior, not the last, not be "racist (more so than any other race)"

Nah, you misread him there. He was trying to say how black people are admittedly more racist than other races, and how it continues because no-one corrects it (probably out of race guilt/not wanting to be labeled "racist" for calling them out on it). It's not so much the fact that other races don't mind as much, but after being raised to be as race-sensitive as possible, they just don't want to step on toes. Western society has very low tolerance for majority-to-minority racism, and comparatively higher tolerance for minority-to-majority (though we both know they're equally wrong).

In short: white person is racist, everyone will call him out on it. Black person is racist, people will be much more hesitant.

"That you have to be told how to act or else it is not your fault if you act badly?"

I don't think Mking was trying to absolve them of responsibility, but merely provide an explanation of why things are the way they are. And anyone who has studied psychology knows that morality (I guess acting racist falls under that banner somewhere) is mostly set out by the kids parents (or similar role-models) in their youth, and after that, it takes a lot of work to correct if its skewed. With that, you can see how attitudes can pass down from generation to generation.

PapiChuloLeon Sat Oct 09, 2010 11:40 pm

Dinny wrote:
PapiChuloLeon wrote:All the trash in this thread started because an islander aussie girl decided to take mking's joke too literally.

More like because ARM said he'd be pissed with me if I didn't respond to Mking.

In the very near future I'm splitting off these off-topic posts into a new thread, if you want to elaborate upon the discussion, continue it here. As a general rule, if you go off-topic, it isn't a huge issue unless it develops into it's own in-depth discussion as it has here. It warrants its own thread.

You sound like a good girlfriend. Laughing

mking is right. Minorities can push the envelope further when it comes to race jokes. One thing about most asians is that they're too introverted and let jokes go at them unanswered. They won't open their mouths, so they get disgraceful labels like model minority. It's not all false, some of them are the far east crackers.

lilith Sun Oct 10, 2010 5:40 am

Dinny wrote:
Guest wrote:Now, even with all the other things you wrote, the one that really kills me is this one: "Now, I'll admit that the down side of our people (blacks) is how we can come off a bit racist (more so than any other race) but most of that comes from the fact that other races never seem to be bothered by it, or never seem to correct the issue when giving the opportunity. How is a child suppose to know NOT to touch a hot stove, if no one ever tell them its hot? " You are basically saying, and correct me if I'm wrong, that it is ok for blacks to be racist because no other races mind, or do not correct you for it? This baffles me. Are you saying that black people, as a race, have no sense of right and wrong? That you have to be told how to act or else it is not your fault if you act badly? I am responsible for my actions, aren't you? I would think that a race that has lived such a dark history based solely on skin color would be the first to admonish this type of behavior, not the last, not be "racist (more so than any other race)"

Nah, you misread him there. He was trying to say how black people are admittedly more racist than other races, and how it continues because no-one corrects it (probably out of race guilt/not wanting to be labeled "racist" for calling them out on it). It's not so much the fact that other races don't mind as much, but after being raised to be as race-sensitive as possible, they just don't want to step on toes. Western society has very low tolerance for majority-to-minority racism, and comparatively higher tolerance for minority-to-majority (though we both know they're equally wrong).

In short: white person is racist, everyone will call him out on it. Black person is racist, people will be much more hesitant.

"That you have to be told how to act or else it is not your fault if you act badly?"

I don't think Mking was trying to absolve them of responsibility, but merely provide an explanation of why things are the way they are. And anyone who has studied psychology knows that morality (I guess acting racist falls under that banner somewhere) is mostly set out by the kids parents (or similar role-models) in their youth, and after that, it takes a lot of work to correct if its skewed. With that, you can see how attitudes can pass down from generation to generation.

I'm a bit lost, because MKing says, "we" when talking about people who can come across as racist. If he has this rotten attitude that we're all speaking of, then what dustbug says is pretty appropriate here. Maybe MKing means that he doesn't have this attitude himself, but the people he feels most closely associated with can have that attitude at times.

**Dinny** Sun Oct 10, 2010 6:28 am

lilith wrote:
Dinny wrote:
Guest wrote:Now, even with all the other things you wrote, the one that really kills me is this one: "Now, I'll admit that the down side of our people (blacks) is how we can come off a bit racist (more so than any other race) but most of that comes from the fact that other races never seem to be bothered by it, or never seem to correct the issue when giving the opportunity. How is a child suppose to know NOT to touch a hot stove, if no one ever tell them its hot? " You are basically saying, and correct me if I'm wrong, that it is ok for blacks to be racist because no other races mind, or do not correct you for it? This baffles me. Are you saying that black people, as a race, have no sense of right and wrong? That you have to be told how to act or else it is not your fault if you act badly? I am responsible for my actions, aren't you? I would think that a race that has lived such a dark history based solely on skin color would be the first to admonish this type of behavior, not the last, not be "racist (more so than any other race)"

Nah, you misread him there. He was trying to say how black people are admittedly more racist than other races, and how it continues because no-one corrects it (probably out of race guilt/not wanting to be labeled "racist" for calling them out on it). It's not so much the fact that other races don't mind as much, but after being raised to be as race-sensitive as possible, they just don't want to step on toes. Western society has very low tolerance for majority-to-minority racism, and comparatively higher tolerance for minority-to-majority (though we both know they're equally wrong).

In short: white person is racist, everyone will call him out on it. Black person is racist, people will be much more hesitant.

"That you have to be told how to act or else it is not your fault if you act badly?"

I don't think Mking was trying to absolve them of responsibility, but merely provide an explanation of why things are the way they are. And anyone who has studied psychology knows that morality (I guess acting racist falls under that banner somewhere) is mostly set out by the kids parents (or similar role-models) in their youth, and after that, it takes a lot of work to correct if its skewed. With that, you can see how attitudes can pass down from generation to generation.

I'm a bit lost, because MKing says, "we" when talking about people who can come across as racist. If he has this rotten attitude that we're all speaking of, then what dustbug says is pretty appropriate here. Maybe MKing means that he doesn't have this attitude himself, but the people he feels most closely associated with can have that attitude at times.

That's what I got from it (last sentence). Interesting how you and dustbug read that way first, and how I read the other way first. "We" is always a very deceptive term though. Laughing

lilith Sun Oct 10, 2010 7:28 am

... Where did that come from? You've been trying to portray this "Australia good, America bad" image for too long. It's getting on my nerves, and I don't think too many people on here think you're more open-minded than the rest of us that grew up in America. Your way of wording things and the way you're worming in some of your ideas could lead someone to believe that though. I'm so sick of this shit. I'm always getting it up in Canada, too with some asshat on Friday telling me that with my two citizenships I better act more Canadian than American. Read past your first impressions and how the American government acts and I don't care if you've gone to California twice or three times to see Alexander. For example, in Brazil, they only get Fox News. What kind of impression does that give Brazilians of American citizens? To be perfectly honest with you, the only news I EVER hear around here about Australia is about something racist a policeman or government official said or junk news about something shocking. Otherwise I hear nothing about the place.

**Dinny** Sun Oct 10, 2010 5:00 pm

lilith wrote:... Where did that come from? You've been trying to portray this "Australia good, America bad" image for too long. It's getting on my nerves, and I don't think too many people on here think you're more open-minded than the rest of us that grew up in America. Your way of wording things and the way you're worming in some of your ideas could lead someone to believe that though. I'm so sick of this shit. I'm always getting it up in Canada, too with some asshat on Friday telling me that with my two citizenships I better act more Canadian than American. Read past your first impressions and how the American government acts and I don't care if you've gone to California twice or three times to see Alexander. For example, in Brazil, they only get Fox News. What kind of impression does that give Brazilians of American citizens? To be perfectly honest with you, the only news I EVER hear around here about Australia is about something racist a policeman or government official said or junk news about something shocking. Otherwise I hear nothing about the place.

Then let it get on your nerves, because it's true. Australia > America in 9 out of 10 categories. Never before have I talked to such ignorant, belligerent, uneducated people than Americans. Never before have I witnessed racism, homophobia and discrimination like I have seen and read about in America (probably only far surpassed by other "theocratic" countries). And on and on I could go.

If I'd go further, I would also say that Canada and the UK are leagues ahead of Australia (they are). Australia is somewhere between America and Canada/the UK on the spectrum of the Western countries, and I'm mainly rating them by what I know about their government, systems and human rights.

To be perfectly honest with you, the only news I EVER hear around hereabout Australia is about something racist a policeman or governmentofficial said or junk news about something shocking. Otherwise I hearnothing about the place.

Didn't you just kind of give yourself away? The difference between you and I is that I actually know a lot about American politics: it's part of my curriculum at law school, it's been covered somewhat in high school, it constitutes half the news here anyway and I keep up to date via internet, SBS world news and occasionally CNN on my own initiative. If that's all you hear, well... There you go. Also, I've spent my whole life dealing with Americans and I've met more Americans than I have Australians, and I don't think you could say the converse.

I understand the latter point only really calls upon what iscomparatively a tiny handful of the population, but honeybunch, that'show statistics work. If I was a statistician, I would be quite fearfulright now, because I have a pretty large sample size, and the majority(30% to 60%)of Americans I've met fit the stereotype other countries have about Americans to a T: lazy, self-indulgent, vain, and ignorant. Boy. The dumbest people I've ever met. The education system is broken. Absolutely broken. You couldn't even compare it to the other Western nations.

BTW, don't even mention those apparently "racist" news reports... When they surfaced, I just hated America more. The two main ones were about the red-faces skit, you remember me talking about that one and defending it, and I'll continue to defend it: no one here believes we have to filter ourselves to suit Americans, there was no intention to be racist whatsoever, etc. The other one was that KFC advertisement that everyone was retarded and took out of context, not realizing that the "black people" in the ad were West Indians, not Africans/African-Americans, and they were the opposing team in cricket that week, which was sponsored by KFC. I will never grasp how dark skinned people + chicken product = racist.

TL;DR version: I'm not saying "America bad, Australia good", I'm saying "America blows donkey dick, so does Australia to a slightly lesser extent, lets all move to somewhere else".

If there was a place I'd suck the metaphorical cock of, it would be the nations of Scandinavia/Fenno-Scandinavia. Best human rights on record, amongst the best healthcare and education in the world, breathtaking scenery, clean cities, and the only nations with virtually seamlessly-implemented socialism from above (of which I am a huge proponent).

lilith Sun Oct 10, 2010 5:46 pm

Dinny wrote:
lilith wrote:... Where did that come from? You've been trying to portray this "Australia good, America bad" image for too long. It's getting on my nerves, and I don't think too many people on here think you're more open-minded than the rest of us that grew up in America. Your way of wording things and the way you're worming in some of your ideas could lead someone to believe that though. I'm so sick of this shit. I'm always getting it up in Canada, too with some asshat on Friday telling me that with my two citizenships I better act more Canadian than American. Read past your first impressions and how the American government acts and I don't care if you've gone to California twice or three times to see Alexander. For example, in Brazil, they only get Fox News. What kind of impression does that give Brazilians of American citizens? To be perfectly honest with you, the only news I EVER hear around here about Australia is about something racist a policeman or government official said or junk news about something shocking. Otherwise I hear nothing about the place.

Then let it get on your nerves, because it's true. Australia > America in 9 out of 10 categories. Never before have I talked to such ignorant, belligerent, uneducated people than Americans. Never before have I witnessed racism, homophobia and discrimination like I have seen and read about in America (probably only far surpassed by other "theocratic" countries). And on and on I could go.

If I'd go further, I would also say that Canada and the UK are leagues ahead of Australia (they are). Australia is somewhere between America and Canada/the UK on the spectrum of the Western countries, and I'm mainly rating them by what I know about their government, systems and human rights.

To be perfectly honest with you, the only news I EVER hear around hereabout Australia is about something racist a policeman or governmentofficial said or junk news about something shocking. Otherwise I hearnothing about the place.

Didn't you just kind of give yourself away? The difference between you and I is that I actually know a lot about American politics: it's part of my curriculum at law school, it's been covered somewhat in high school, it constitutes half the news here anyway and I keep up to date via internet, SBS world news and occasionally CNN on my own initiative. If that's all you hear, well... There you go. Also, I've spent my whole life dealing with Americans and I've met more Americans than I have Australians, and I don't think you could say the converse.

I understand the latter point only really calls upon what iscomparatively a tiny handful of the population, but honeybunch, that'show statistics work. If I was a statistician, I would be quite fearfulright now, because I have a pretty large sample size, and the majority(30% to 60%)of Americans I've met fit the stereotype other countries have about Americans to a T: lazy, self-indulgent, vain, and ignorant. Boy. The dumbest people I've ever met. The education system is broken. Absolutely broken. You couldn't even compare it to the other Western nations.

BTW, don't even mention those apparently "racist" news reports... When they surfaced, I just hated America more. The two main ones were about the red-faces skit, you remember me talking about that one and defending it, and I'll continue to defend it: no one here believes we have to filter ourselves to suit Americans, there was no intention to be racist whatsoever, etc. The other one was that KFC advertisement that everyone was retarded and took out of context, not realizing that the "black people" in the ad were West Indians, not Africans/African-Americans, and they were the opposing team in cricket that week, which was sponsored by KFC. I will never grasp how dark skinned people + chicken product = racist.

TL;DR version: I'm not saying "America bad, Australia good", I'm saying "America blows donkey dick, so does Australia to a slightly lesser extent, lets all move to somewhere else".

If there was a place I'd suck the metaphorical cock of, it would be the nations of Scandinavia/Fenno-Scandinavia. Best human rights on record, amongst the best healthcare and education in the world, breathtaking scenery, clean cities, and the only nations with virtually seamlessly-implemented socialism from above (of which I am a huge proponent).

"I understand the latter point only really calls upon what iscomparatively a tiny handful of the population, but honeybunch, that'show statistics work. If I was a statistician, I would be quite fearfulright now, because I have a pretty large sample size, and the majority(30% to 60%)of Americans I've met fit the stereotype other countries have about Americans to a T: lazy, self-indulgent, vain, and ignorant. Boy. The dumbest people I've ever met. The education system is broken. Absolutely broken. You couldn't even compare it to the other Western nations."

Sorry for lashing out (I was still worked up over Friday night), and I have to agree somewhat with this. I do find a lot of Americans frustrating (nothing shows off their true colours like serving them), I have issues with their politics and don't get me even started on the education system as I pretty much just learned how to excel in Texas administered tests. Neutral

The thing that frustrates me the most is the "holier than thou" attitude that I get from some Australians, British people, sometimes French, and Canadians. Governments and political parties vary of course, but I can't let it represent every individual. I personally don't feel like the American stereotype. I don't feel like what Bush (or now Obama) does represents my ideas and most people in America were unhappy with Bush (his second term had the lowest turnout of voters in history percentage wise over the eligible voter group). I feel like IRL I get a lot of backlash from being from Texas in the first place. I'm over here in Newfoundland where there are some of the most racist people I've ever met because they grew up in towns of a 100 people and haven't seen a black guy or met a Jewish guy until they were 18, and they want ME (like this guy at the party) to make sure I act like a Canadian instead of an American? What does that even mean when we're both in privileged white-dominated industrialized societies? I'm glad that you read CNN and aren't just reading Fox News or something. Some countries only get that impression, but where I was going with the Australian news part was that I wasn't going to make the assumption Australians have a tendency to be racist, just because of a couple of news sources. I wasn't saying, "Well, the only thing that happens in Australia is racism, and it's way more than in the US!" I know there are responsible, intelligent and knowledgeable people in every country and try to associate with them instead. I'm wondering though what kind of American you've been talking to... I know a ton of bright people over there (and some frighteningly stupid ones, too). Are you mostly conversing with tourists or students or what (tourists can be the worst)?

edit: And yeah, Finland and Scandinavia seem to have it all figured out. If I could go back in time and get a Finnish education (applying there for a Master's anyway...) I'd love that.

PapiChuloLeon Sun Oct 10, 2010 10:20 pm

In America, cops like to pull over black people for no reason.

Monty Mon Oct 11, 2010 12:14 am

In Soviet Russia, trains ride you!

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